Manufacturers need to address the following EV Towing scenarios:

[itsrixter]

I posted earlier about how Scout was hitting the key requirements of an EV truck for towing. Since then, they have been going backwards. The initial announcement of a 300-mile range plus 200 miles with a gas range extender for a towing capacity of 10,000 lbs was great news. Then came the update that the range extender version would cut battery capacity (using LFP batteries vs NMC) and hence reduce range, along with towing capacity dropped to 5000 lbs for the SUV range extender version. What the heck?!

Well, look at the reservations...more folks have RSVP'd for the SUV. The range-extended version has far more RSVPs than all-electric. So the most popular combo version of the Scout line is retracting in capability.

The Cybertruck was announced with a 600-mile range and a 10,000 lbs towing capacity. It rolled out with about a 320-mile range but kept the towing capacity at 10K. So it tows for about 160 miles. It's not a real workhorse truck but rather a novelty. The issue is, manufacturers are not walking through the EV towing scenario, at least the way I see it. With EV towing, essentially, the range is cut in half. So you need to recharge. The infrastructure for charging while towing is a bad experience.

EV Truck manufacturers need to solve these key points if they want to get serious penetration into the truck market (and why they are currently failing):

1) Range. Need to get 500+ mile range. That would be only 250 miles towing with some hills and mild head winds. Scout initially hit this well with the NMC battery and range extender, but now retracted.
2) Tow capacity. Min 8300 lbs. so it can handle a nice boat, trailer and gear. Again, Scout hit this initially, but now the range extender pickup can only tow 7,000 lbs and it is a weak 5000 on the SUV.
3) Charging Logistics. It doesn't make sense to use existing charging stations while towing and having the charge port on the rear of the vehicle. Disconnect a trailer once or twice on a trip to charge? That is a deal breaker. Putting the charging port in the front like Rivian helps, but pull-through EV charging stalls are few. This again was addressed nicely with Scout's range extender, but the battery was reduced 120-150 mile range on the extender versions, so this nice EV starts to fall in the spectrum of a novelty like the Cybertruck.

When I tow, it is a boat or watercraft for 200 miles (3 hrs) with a small mountain range to get through. Even a decent all-EV truck like eSilverado / Denali would have to stop for a small charge. The logistics of disconnecting the trailer and charging aren't worth it. Another trip is to Havasu (from SoCal is nearly 5 hours and over 300 miles). There is no way I am stopping twice to handle the pain of the trailer being in the way to charge, not to mention the time delay to charge twice.

I have seen studies about the average or typical car trip is 11 miles and how most cars don't travel more than 100 miles per day. That makes sense for designing a daily driver for "typical" commutes. Pickup trucks and SUVs with a heavy off-road focus are not in that category. I would bet most 4x4 trucks and SUVs don't use 4WD mode more than 20 % of the time, and mine less than 10%. That doesn't mean we don't want or need 4WD, it means the capability is more important than the frequency of use. This is what EV truck owners like me want. Similar to an AED defibrillator device...not used 99.5% of the time, but having it there when needed is the true value.

I am not sure what the rest of you reservation holders are planning to do with your trucks and how the latest updates are impacting your thoughts and impressions, but I would love to hear your opinions.

 

[maynard]

I posted earlier about how Scout was hitting the key requirements of an EV truck for towing. Since then, they have been going backwards. The initial announcement of a 300-mile range plus 200 miles with a gas range extender for a towing capacity of 10,000 lbs was great news. Then came the update that the range extender version would cut battery capacity (using LFP batteries vs NMC) and hence reduce range, along with towing capacity dropped to 5000 lbs for the SUV range extender version. What the heck?!

Well, look at the reservations...more folks have RSVP'd for the SUV. The range-extended version has far more RSVPs than all-electric. So the most popular combo version of the Scout line is retracting in capability.

The Cybertruck was announced with a 600-mile range and a 10,000 lbs towing capacity. It rolled out with about a 320-mile range but kept the towing capacity at 10K. So it tows for about 160 miles. It's not a real workhorse truck but rather a novelty. The issue is, manufacturers are not walking through the EV towing scenario, at least the way I see it. With EV towing, essentially, the range is cut in half. So you need to recharge. The infrastructure for charging while towing is a bad experience.

EV Truck manufacturers need to solve these key points if they want to get serious penetration into the truck market (and why they are currently failing):

1) Range. Need to get 500+ mile range. That would be only 250 miles towing with some hills and mild head winds. Scout initially hit this well with the NMC battery and range extender, but now retracted.
2) Tow capacity. Min 8300 lbs. so it can handle a nice boat, trailer and gear. Again, Scout hit this initially, but now the range extender pickup can only tow 7,000 lbs and it is a weak 5000 on the SUV.
3) Charging Logistics. It doesn't make sense to use existing charging stations while towing and having the charge port on the rear of the vehicle. Disconnect a trailer once or twice on a trip to charge? That is a deal breaker. Putting the charging port in the front like Rivian helps, but pull-through EV charging stalls are few. This again was addressed nicely with Scout's range extender, but the battery was reduced 120-150 mile range on the extender versions, so this nice EV starts to fall in the spectrum of a novelty like the Cybertruck.

When I tow, it is a boat or watercraft for 200 miles (3 hrs) with a small mountain range to get through. Even a decent all-EV truck like eSilverado / Denali would have to stop for a small charge. The logistics of disconnecting the trailer and charging aren't worth it. Another trip is to Havasu (from SoCal is nearly 5 hours and over 300 miles). There is no way I am stopping twice to handle the pain of the trailer being in the way to charge, not to mention the time delay to charge twice.

I have seen studies about the average or typical car trip is 11 miles and how most cars don't travel more than 100 miles per day. That makes sense for designing a daily driver for "typical" commutes. Pickup trucks and SUVs with a heavy off-road focus are not in that category. I would bet most 4x4 trucks and SUVs don't use 4WD mode more than 20 % of the time, and mine less than 10%. That doesn't mean we don't want or need 4WD, it means the capability is more important than the frequency of use. This is what EV truck owners like me want. Similar to an AED defibrillator device...not used 99.5% of the time, but having it there when needed is the true value.

I am not sure what the rest of you reservation holders are planning to do with your trucks and how the latest updates are impacting your thoughts and impressions, but I would love to hear your opinions.

I may be forced to look harder at the Ramcharger for all the reasons you mention... But I really want a Scout - so maybe I get a lighter camper and boat... Plentry of time to decide...

 

[joewilk45]

Let's look at this from a business perspective that's how successful companies become successful. What percentage of scout reservations will tow ??? What's Scouts main consumer ?? I think Scout knows that answer and will design and market accordingly.

 

[volsdoc81tx]

I posted earlier about how Scout was hitting the key requirements of an EV truck for towing. Since then, they have been going backwards. The initial announcement of a 300-mile range plus 200 miles with a gas range extender for a towing capacity of 10,000 lbs was great news. Then came the update that the range extender version would cut battery capacity (using LFP batteries vs NMC) and hence reduce range, along with towing capacity dropped to 5000 lbs for the SUV range extender version. What the heck?!

Well, look at the reservations...more folks have RSVP'd for the SUV. The range-extended version has far more RSVPs than all-electric. So the most popular combo version of the Scout line is retracting in capability.

The Cybertruck was announced with a 600-mile range and a 10,000 lbs towing capacity. It rolled out with about a 320-mile range but kept the towing capacity at 10K. So it tows for about 160 miles. It's not a real workhorse truck but rather a novelty. The issue is, manufacturers are not walking through the EV towing scenario, at least the way I see it. With EV towing, essentially, the range is cut in half. So you need to recharge. The infrastructure for charging while towing is a bad experience.

EV Truck manufacturers need to solve these key points if they want to get serious penetration into the truck market (and why they are currently failing):

1) Range. Need to get 500+ mile range. That would be only 250 miles towing with some hills and mild head winds. Scout initially hit this well with the NMC battery and range extender, but now retracted.
2) Tow capacity. Min 8300 lbs. so it can handle a nice boat, trailer and gear. Again, Scout hit this initially, but now the range extender pickup can only tow 7,000 lbs and it is a weak 5000 on the SUV.
3) Charging Logistics. It doesn't make sense to use existing charging stations while towing and having the charge port on the rear of the vehicle. Disconnect a trailer once or twice on a trip to charge? That is a deal breaker. Putting the charging port in the front like Rivian helps, but pull-through EV charging stalls are few. This again was addressed nicely with Scout's range extender, but the battery was reduced 120-150 mile range on the extender versions, so this nice EV starts to fall in the spectrum of a novelty like the Cybertruck.

When I tow, it is a boat or watercraft for 200 miles (3 hrs) with a small mountain range to get through. Even a decent all-EV truck like eSilverado / Denali would have to stop for a small charge. The logistics of disconnecting the trailer and charging aren't worth it. Another trip is to Havasu (from SoCal is nearly 5 hours and over 300 miles). There is no way I am stopping twice to handle the pain of the trailer being in the way to charge, not to mention the time delay to charge twice.

I have seen studies about the average or typical car trip is 11 miles and how most cars don't travel more than 100 miles per day. That makes sense for designing a daily driver for "typical" commutes. Pickup trucks and SUVs with a heavy off-road focus are not in that category. I would bet most 4x4 trucks and SUVs don't use 4WD mode more than 20 % of the time, and mine less than 10%. That doesn't mean we don't want or need 4WD, it means the capability is more important than the frequency of use. This is what EV truck owners like me want. Similar to an AED defibrillator device...not used 99.5% of the time, but having it there when needed is the true value.

I am not sure what the rest of you reservation holders are planning to do with your trucks and how the latest updates are impacting your thoughts and impressions, but I would love to hear your opinions.

Totally agree with everything you said.
I was so excited when I saw the initial commercial for the new Scout! The the excitement died when they announced all of the towing changes. Maybe they need to look at the Ram hybrid setup. I have started to explore other options. I’m keeping my reservation in the hopes that Scout (VW) corrects an essentially horrible design change.
My boat is only a few years old. I have kept my boats for an average of 13 years each. Absolutely no way am I buying a new boat to accommodate a crappy towing limit on a future SUV. I really don’t need to tow my boat very far, but I also don’t want to purchase a vehicle that eliminates my ability to do that.

A friend of mine has already dropped his reservation for the Terra truck when it was announced that the only front seat option will be a bench seat.

I truly hope that the manufacturer reads this site and rectifies these issues or they may find a much, much smaller market interested in purchasing the Scout product.

 

[joewilk45]

I think 80 % of reservations will never tow. Bike racks. And 65% will never go off roading

 

[vrgruver]

JoeWilk45 nailed it.
To add some math to it, a Scout with an electric motor can be capable of towing X while a suitable gas or diesel can tow X, too. However, the gas loses fuel economy dramatically like an electric truck. So, the gas truck adds expense with each towing fillup. If used for heavy towing rarely, you are not adding that much to the overall cost of the gas pickup. The diesel doesn't lose as much economy when towing heavy loads, but the truck costs more in the beginning. The electric truck will lose range when towing like gas. The only way to get range up to where it needs to be is generously enlarge the battery which also increases the weight dramatically. I don't know if adding a gearbox to the motor will truly increase pulling capability without reducing range as much. You then have to think about the increased friction and mechanical loss(need some testing).
I do not know of a way to change the motor to tow more like a diesel and not lose a lot of economy. I think an additional battery module to only be used during heavy towing would be a good answer for now. That would be an additional 1600-2700 pounds of bloat which you wouldn't want on a daily basis and will reduce your overall tow figure.
A fun problem that maybe a single outsourced entity could resolve for several manufacturers at once sharing the cost. Kind of like Getrag providing transmissions to automotive manufacturers.

 

[colinnwn]

I don't disagree with your pain points. But aside from some idle speculation of vloggers, I never saw Scout change the battery range of the Harvester. From release day I saw it quoted from a Scout Rep that the Harvester would have a smaller battery, probably 150 miles with the rest coming from the Harvester.

Batteries are both very heavy and very expensive, and no manufacturer has a solution to that yet. I would like a 600 mile battery to have 300 mile towing, but I won't pay the $20,000 more for it.

I believe it was Scott that said shortly later they were reducing the battery size also to keep total manufacturing costs similar, but stopping short of saying the Harvester would be a no cost option.

I hope the Harvester gets a slightly higher tow limit than 5k, but if that what it ends up as, and it could maintain 75 mph towing that much on flat ground, it is enough for me.

I haven't seen it quoted that the Terra will only get a bench seat. Do we have a reference to Scout saying that? Though it's what I want as long as the seat is comfortable and has a bucket feel like on F150s.

 

[Chuckles]

Totally agree with everything you said.
I was so excited when I saw the initial commercial for the new Scout! The the excitement died when they announced all of the towing changes. Maybe they need to look at the Ram hybrid setup. I have started to explore other options. I’m keeping my reservation in the hopes that Scout (VW) corrects an essentially horrible design change.
My boat is only a few years old. I have kept my boats for an average of 13 years each. Absolutely no way am I buying a new boat to accommodate a crappy towing limit on a future SUV. I really don’t need to tow my boat very far, but I also don’t want to purchase a vehicle that eliminates my ability to do that.

A friend of mine has already dropped his reservation for the Terra truck when it was announced that the only front seat option will be a bench seat.

I truly hope that the manufacturer reads this site and rectifies these issues or they may find a much, much smaller market interested in purchasing the Scout product.

Your friend got some bad information. Both Traveler and Terra will offer bench or bucket seats. Scout has never indicated otherwise since the unveiling.

 

[joewilk45]

Question if you were Scout who would you cater to the 15 / 20 % who tow or 80% who are going to never tow anything other than mountain bikes ???

 

[colinnwn]

Question if you were Scout who would you cater to the 15 / 20 % who tow or 80% who are going to never tow anything other than mountain bikes ???

No doubt the towers. There's a significant portion of that 80% who want the capability in their expensive truck and aren't ready to accept they will likely never use it. A truck that can barely tow what a compact crossover can tow will not be taken seriously and will lose marketplace credibility.

But Scout also have to strike a balance to not cause so much additional expense over provisioning for heavy towing that they make the price uncompetitive.

 

[joewilk45]

The tower's drive diesel at least that's what I see on my trips to Florida but listen people who buy Range Rover's 15% utilize it's off-roading capability I do not see Scout making towing a mainstay because they know what the masses want

 

[MannyG20]

There is simply no economical, practical or reasonably technological solution to your problems at this time. I would love to have a Scout SUV with the specifications you laid out but it is not feasible.

 

[Sunrack]

In-lieu-of a gas range extender, how about investigating a removable added battery pack that would be designed to package into the frunk? You would need not only to connect the high-voltage connections but also coolant lines. That weight would be placed over the front and not readily affect tow loading to the rear axle. It also would be removable to save weight in normal driving situations. Suspension would need to be adjustable (air springs) that are to be available on this truck anyway. Of course this complicates crash testing, suspension design, brake size, etc.
With available power storage, electric trucks can have great towing dynamics.

 

[Rocket13foxtrot]

This reflects a problem that scout will have with their branding I think. They are going hardcore off-road but the truth is very few people, I would even say less than 20%, will actually deliberately take their brand new $60,000... Or $70,000 SUV off-road. I won't. So personally I have been bummed out that the design features are so hardcore off-road like body on frame and solid axle... I know hardcore off-roaders like that stuff but the other 95% of us would probably prefer a unibody and independent rear suspension whether they realize it or not. You're paying quite a price from the perspective of money and on-road capability for that off-road capability that vast majority will never actually use.

I also agree that it is frustrating that scout has been advertising capabilities that have conditions. It's borderline dishonest. That being said, as an EV it's not going to tow well over distance. That's just the way technology is at the current time.

 

[colinnwn]

In-lieu-of a gas range extender, how about investigating a removable added battery pack that would be designed to package into the frunk? You would need not only to connect the high-voltage connections but also coolant lines. That weight would be placed over the front and not readily affect tow loading to the rear axle. It also would be removable to save weight in normal driving situations. Suspension would need to be adjustable (air springs) that are to be available on this truck anyway. Of course this complicates crash testing, suspension design, brake size, etc.
With available power storage, electric trucks can have great towing dynamics.

That would be a hard no for me. I don't think the frunk is big enough but if it was that would be another $10k accessory that would need a small hand crane to install safely in addition to all the other issues you called out. Then it wouldn't entirely solve my problem of towing out to West Texas where chargers are rare, can be out of service, and may not allow hookup without unhooking the trailer.

The range extender that can tow 5k without compromises is exactly what I want to feel comfortable spending $60k on a new vehicle that I wouldn't otherwise buy, except I want to support and own a Scout again.

Anything else and it would be a hard pass unless I won the lottery. I'll just keep my decade old F150 that I like a lot.